Brandon: [00:00:00] [00:00:00]
Hello, and welcome to the real secrets of magic podcast. I'm your host, Brandon and today on the show, I'm excited to have Heather Moyse, two-time Olympic gold medalist, World Rugby Hall of Famer, a speaker, author, and coach. And I'm proud to call her my friend, Heather. Thanks so much for making time to join me on the show today.
Heather: [00:00:28] Hey, it's so great to be here.
Brandon: [00:00:30] And as our listeners know who have followed along so far, the Real Secrets of Magic is not about tricks. We're not talking about illusions or sleight of hand, although I do love to talk about those things too. What we're really, after in this program is learning secret practices that magic makers use to create possibilities.
And Heather, you have made a lot of magic in the public's eye and some things that maybe not everybody knows about. From winning a gold [00:01:00] medal not just once, but twice as an underdog, several times also in, in being the second Canadian first Canadian woman inducted into the World, Rugby Hall of Fame.
So your athletic accolades are, are magical on a different level. But I also know that you are a coach and you help people kind of redefine what what's possible for them and have had tremendous success in that regard as well. Would you mind sharing a little bit for us - talk about what you feel is, is some of the magic that you're making.
Heather: [00:01:35] Yeah, it's funny that you just use the term redefine since that's part of the name of my book. Yeah. I wrote a book called Redefining Realistic and that basically kind of is the premise of what I do when I'm helping clients. When I'm speaking from the stage, I really, I'm not a how to, like, it's the same way my book is written.
It's not it's not going to give you a step-by-step of anything, but you will finish either reading that or after you [00:02:00] leave a room after I've spoken, the goal is to have people leave starting to question their assumptions about what they currently believe to be possible or impossible. And, you know, starting to challenge their, the fears that they might recognize, or they start recognizing are holding them back and just start embracing the challenges to kind of seize the potential that they kind of have convinced themselves through some internal narrative that things might not have been possible for them. So it's been really rewarding for me, especially hearing, you know, getting follow-up feedback on success stories of people who've, you know, where just a slight shift in the way they were looking at something helped kind of transform the path, helped even change something that they were pursuing, like from one thing that they thought was a guarantee to pursuing the possibilities instead of a guarantee.
So that's where the magic happens. Magic doesn't happen when you just pursue something that's guaranteed. The magic happens when you [00:03:00] decide that you want to embrace the challenge of seeing how close you can get to something that you're really passionate about.
Brandon: [00:03:06] Hm. I love that they like open to the risk and, and leaning into that.
Heather: [00:03:12] Well, part of it is risk reward, and part of it is just, you know, you say, we all talk about stepping outside of our comfort zone, but, you know, for some people, what does that actually mean? And sometimes that means pursuing something, recognizing that there aren't really any guarantees. There are some, some outcomes that are more sure than others, but if you know something, as for sure.
Then you're probably not going very far. You know, you're probably not stretching yourself. You're probably, you're not testing your potential and testing what you're truly capable of. And the only way to discover what you're truly, truly capable of is to step in a space of unknown and embrace that challenge of of seeing how close you can get.
Brandon: [00:03:53] Yeah. Yeah. I, you and I are in the same business, I think of, of possibilities [00:04:00] mining and helping people realize there is more beyond what you think. I wonder if you could speak a little bit to what, what's the risk of playing small? Like what's the risk of staying with the guaranteed surefire outcomes and, and what do you notice with your clients? Like what pulls them to want more?
Heather: [00:04:25] Yeah, I think the risk of, of playing it small or staying small is, I mean, this is going to be different for everybody, right? So it really just depends on what people's priorities are and what their internal, for some people that's safety and security is what is going to make them happy and feel safe.
And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But the risk of playing small, it's only risky for someone who will always question the "what if" the like, "well, I wonder what would've happened if I had tried that" or in hindsight, the regret of not trying, [00:05:00] cause you'll never know. You'll never know how close you could have gotten to that or whether you could have succeeded.
And so really. The, the attempts and the trials it's, it's often very strategic. It's not just saying hi, I'm just going to jump in, you know, see where I land. So it can be extremely strategic. And when you plan things out properly, you can kind of see the way that you could potentially get there. And it makes things a little more feasible in one's mind.
And you kind of embrace that journey more. And then at least at the end, They can just, they're able to say that they're able to not have those regrets of not knowing because a lot of times it's that not knowing that really bothers people.
Brandon: [00:05:41] Yeah. Yeah, totally. I love that the, what you outlined or what you talk about is, is subtle but powerful and, and you know, the idea that a shift in perspective or a shift in your, in your thinking can lead [00:06:00] to possibilities or can show you a new way of the world or being. Have you experienced in your life- like when did you, have you felt that shift yourself or have you, you know, been up against the wall and noticed that that you were living small or playing in "Sure Land" and, and had like that, that pivot I wonder where, where this lands for you personally?
Heather: [00:06:27] Yeah, it's, it's strange because the, the whole mindset piece For me, I've kind of always had that, that growth mindset piece sort of it's weird though. Cause I grew up in a really small town. I grew up in Prince Edward Island and, and so there weren't, for example, there weren't people around me training to go to the Olympics or training to represent our country.
So for me, no matter how athletically gifted I was, which I can now [00:07:00] look back and recognize, but at the time you're just thinking, okay, big fish, small pond. You don't really think world stage, you know, anything like that. And so, yeah, like, I didn't know, grow up dreaming to be like those people, because those people were TV people.
Right. Like Olympians were TV people, not everyday normal people, like I considered myself to be right. So it's not that I actively thought, Oh, I can't do that. It just never occurred to me to even pursue that path because you know, it was, I could have pursued being a doctor because my dad's a doctor or, you know, you know, a teacher.
Cause there were teachers all over the, like you see teachers every day, you know, dentist, like the things that were here that were tangible that you could model after, but Olympians, they were TV people. Right. And so it was, I mean, I did, I played sports my whole life, but just for fun, I played three varsity sports at university, but still never trained really seriously or lifted weights.
I just kind of did what was asked of [00:08:00] me at practice. And it wasn't until I was 27. When I was suddenly faced with the challenge of seeing if I could go and compete for my country in the next Olympics, in the sport of bobsledding which was less than five months away. And so the only reason I even was considering this - so they had asked me to do this for years before.
And I had said, no, not interested. And because I was pursuing something else that I was really interested in. So it didn't, you know, didn't phase the whole social. You know, Olympian, elevating Olympians, that didn't really phase me in the least. And so, and this thing came on and the only reason I even considered it was because I had finally agreed to just do the testing because this recruiter had kept like, was hounding me and hounding me.
And I was like, I'll just do the testing. Okay. I'll, I'll go, I'll do the testing. It's not like I'm really going to do this, but you know, I'll do it anyway. And then I ended up breaking one of their [00:09:00] testing records and I was like, Wait a second. I just broke a record amongst all these people who've been training for years and are supposed to be representing us in five months at the Olympics.
I was like, huh, I wonder, I wonder if I can do it. Can I learn a new sport? Can I learn to do it well? And can I learn to do it well enough? To represent my country in less than five months time. So for me, I hadn't even seen a bobsled. Hadn't been down a track yet. Had no idea if I was going to love it, hate it, no idea.
But I fell in love with the challenge of just seeing how close I could get to doing that. And so I had to apply to put my master's degree on a one-year leave of absence because it was professional program in occupational therapy. So they filled out the applications and helped me do all that stuff.
And I was like, okay, five months of my life, what, like, let's just see. And it was kind of a revelation in terms of [00:10:00] like, even, even when I'm helping clients right now, it's when you're setting goals. You, you need to set them big in order to test yourself, to see how close you can get. But when you set them, you also have to recognize that almost it's almost the bigger, the better, because you may not expect to get there.
But you set it as though you can, and you, it's almost like a challenge, like, yeah. Okay. I might not get there, but I'm going to challenge myself to see how close I can get to there. And it becomes like, if you're embracing it like a challenge and like there are solutions to this, then that's, then that's when you realize what you're really, truly capable of.
And I think I, that wasn't an intentional thing at the time. But when I like, after the fact, when you start working on things, like how did you - did you think you could do it? And I was just like, well, I knew that like, after all the training, I knew I was capable of something. There's no guarantees to [00:11:00] anything.
Right. But your expectations, you can't expect to win, but you have to at least know that you're capable of doing it and then kind of embrace that challenge of getting there. So it's been a really, you know, interesting time since then and bringing in some of the stories. And I mean, for me, I feel very fortunate because I started so late.
Like at 27, I just started lifting weights and kind of discovering this professional sporting world. But because of that, I also came in with my like values intact and like, I'm not persuaded by, by just the outright success for the sake of having success. Like, for me, it's about challenges. It's not about necessarily winning all the time and it's not about - it it's really, it's been an interesting journey and it's been really great to be able to help change the perspective of others, especially parents who have kids right now, who are, you know - it it's really been great to change perspectives of [00:12:00] parents who are trying to parent kids who are in sports and also pointing out to them and identifying whether it's their goals for their child, whether it's really their child's goals.
And the effects of, of both of those scenarios and, and that sort of thing. So it's been, it's been a really great journey for me.
Brandon: [00:12:18] That's there's a lot in that and it's like, you have a really great story and I, I, I really, you know, when I'm thinking about what that shift is, you say, "I wonder if", you know, and that's like, have there ever been more powerful words?
Maybe "I can't" is the other side of that coin, but like, I wonder if and what I love about your approach is it wasn't ever about, like you say, it wasn't about the success, the outcome itself. And it was like, Can I step into the challenge and, and find the steps I need to accomplish each layer of challenge here to [00:13:00] appreciate that journey? and then the gold medals come later, right?
Like leaning into the challenge. You do the work and then comes the, the awards and the recognition and the accomplishment.
Heather: [00:13:10] Oftentimes when we're so focused on the goal, you actually lose sight of the individual steps that need to happen. And then you miss a step and you don't make it. And on the flip side of that coin, a lot of people are hesitant to set big goals because they're so overwhelming.
So a lot of my job, like a lot of the work I do with clients is helping people break those goals down. And it's really funny because everyone has their - the things that come naturally to them. Right. So, and you, and you, and for those people, you can't possibly understand how someone doesn't already know this, like how someone doesn't understand this.
So it'd be like me asking my nephew a tech question on the phone. Like, he'll be like, auntie, like, you don't know how to do that. Like, and so when people started [00:14:00] asking me about getting into coaching and teaching, like things like goal setting, and I was just like, Like isn't that doesn't everybody know how to do that.
Right. It's something that I had just, I think, taken for granted on being able to break those kinds of scenarios down. And I didn't realize that not everybody, it doesn't come naturally to everybody. And then when I realized the whole tech thing, I was like, Oh, okay. Okay. That's so yeah. So a lot of it is breaking down all of the steps and all of the different milestones and the different goals that you can set within a big goal and how to target those and how to, you know, if you've got a timeframe, how to break that up into a, you know, into a timeline and figuring out all those different things. And it's, it's been really great to be able to break things down because when people actually break things down into the smallest, almost like task-like steps, all of a sudden it's like, well, that's all I have to do today to get there. That's all I have. Yeah. That's actually [00:15:00] all you have to do today because if you, if people saw what I had to do to go to the Olympics, it's mundane. I mean, yes. It's lifting heavy weights and yes, it's doing whatever, but it didn't start there. And it literally was, it's just, it's just plugging away.
You're plugging away. I mean, there are like layers and stuff, but basically if they just knew what I was doing every day, With intention, then it just kind of, it builds up and it amounts to progress and all it is is progress. And all it is is progress. And then suddenly you get to a point and you get to a point where you potentially are frustrated being like, Oh my gosh, I'm not going anywhere.
But if you have at least documented it enough, you can look back and be like, Oh, I might just not be having a good week because I'm lifting less than last week. But I'm actually lifting 700 times the amount that I was lifting when I started or whatever. And I think that like tracking progress is a pretty powerful, empowering exercise to be [00:16:00] able to do that when people are striving for for goals.
Brandon: [00:16:03] Yeah, definitely, you're such a good person on this podcast because of this thing. Exactly what you're talking about like that. When people ask me if I can teach them a magic trick, And I'm always willing to do so. Cause I think we need more magicians in the world.
Right. So I'll teach a trick.
Heather: [00:16:24] I can still do it right now.
Brandon: [00:16:27] Right. We'll have to test that. But I'll, I'll teach the method for a trick and how to do it. And, and people, 99% of people go, Oh, I can't do that. Like, Oh, that's what it is. I can't do that. And they just won't put in the work of that everyday practice.
And that's the way - they want magic now. They want to snap their fingers and be able to do it. Like it looks, you know, a quick trick looks miraculous, but they don't see all of the practice and all of the steps in technique. And that leaning into the [00:17:00] grind that went into being able to do that. And yeah.
And I think that's the, that's the most empowering thing in the world. You know, everybody can make magic, everybody could become presumably an Olympic athlete if they knew what steps to take and could do it with that intention. Like you say, so -
Heather: [00:17:17] The key is to be like challenge yourself, and then regardless of whether you become one or not, You will actually at least discover how good you can really be or how far you can really go.
And that's the key. I think that's the key is just, it's churning it instead of here's my goal. It's like success or failure of whether you achieve it or not. It's like, you know what? Yeah. I'm setting this high goal really high. I want to see, and I just want to challenge myself to see how close I can get how much like problem solving and looking for solutions and different ways of doing things and becoming creative and finding ways around things.
And, okay, I got an injury. And how do I like I'll challenge yourself to see what you can do to get to, as [00:18:00] far as you can go.
Brandon: [00:18:01] That's brilliant. And I can hear that growth mindset. You talk about an injury for like growth mindset basically looks at all things as problems that can be solved. You know, there is a, there is a path you just have to dig long enough to, to find it and play with possibilities, to get there a really powerful way of thinking for sure.
On that note, when you're working with clients, what do you find is a big or common barrier for people? When you're trying to help people set goals or people have goals they want that they feel are big. W what do you notice is like a common, a common wall?
Heather: [00:18:45] A common wall is oftentimes people will say that they've tried to achieve these before and that they haven't been able to, or that they can't. So in their mind, they're already starting to think that they're unable to achieve certain [00:19:00] things. But what I usually end up helping reveal with some of my clients is that they, their why, their reason for that goal doesn't actually align with their values or where they are in their life. So there's always, if, if their why isn't really authentic and genuine then there's - and that they're honest with themselves as to why they're pursuing that goal, then there's always going to be something. If it's not your priority, if you ever come to a fork in the road, You're never - you're always going to pick the other path.
Right. And so it's going to, and then you get frustrated and then you're like, Oh, I'm down this path. So for example, like if someone, if I had a client who was, whose goal was to lose weight and I said, okay, why, you know, why do you want to lose it? Wait, well, I, you know, I'm too big, [00:20:00] says who. It says, it says, who says what culture, you know?
And she's like, well, I just feel like I, I just, I feel like I need to be healthier. Oh, where are you unhealthy right now? And it just posing the questions that, and not, and not in an attacking way, just making her think. Why do you want to lose weight? And while I, I feel like I need to be healthier. Are you unhealthy right now?
Because there are a lot of very skinny, thin people out there. Who are extremely unhealthy. And so it's, it's just like, okay, what are you striving for? Is it appearance? Is it health? Is it, you know, whatever. And what is the underlying reason for that? And what is causing that? And, and, and she got to the point where she would always lose a certain amount of weight and then stop, and then just fall, like kind of go back to her, you know, regular eating and regular whatever. And I said, okay, well maybe, maybe you're not hitting your goal because that goal is really not important to you. You just got to a point where you felt good enough to be more social, more, more [00:21:00] engaged, more whatever. And maybe that's your goal.
Like why did you have that number in mind that you were striving to meet? And when you start thinking about that, she's kind of like, I don't know. I just thought that that's the number like that would be. You know, and it it's, it's just been really interesting. It's been really interesting working with people and just having them kind of identify the real reasons why they're pursuing something.
Some of them are pursuing something because that's what their family expects of them or that's what - we all know those. But that's what we feel like. That's what we feel we should be pursuing. Like that's why most new year's resolutions goals never, never. Come to fruition. Cause people are setting resolutions that they think they should be setting, not things that they actually are driven to pursue because they truly, truly want to change something.
They just they're being told that, you know, that I shouldn't be drinking this or eating this or smoking this or whatever. And then, you know, but do you really want to stop? Probably, [00:22:00] maybe not. If you do, then you might stick with it, but as soon as it, if it's not your actual ultimate route, why, and if it doesn't align with your values, every time there's a choice you'll be drawn to picking the other thing, or if not in the first week, after the first week, you'll be drawn to picking the other path, right?
Brandon: [00:22:19] Yeah. Right. There's that little initial momentum of the novelty.
Heather: [00:22:23] So I'm going to do this. And then, and then after that, you know, it's well, I don't know anymore, so yeah.
Brandon: [00:22:32] Yeah. That's, that's really, you know, again, it's like a major insight and, and I know I'm susceptible to making goals and not ever thinking clearly or all the way through why it really matters. And then, you know, I experienced it myself, but I can do it with clients. I can do it with other people too. I can say, you know, like, what's your, why, why is this important to you?
But, but also that it just shows how How subtle, how subtle a [00:23:00] process it is.
Heather: [00:23:00] And it's not even a surface "why" - we're talking like fifth level "why" like your root - like in my book identified as your root why? Like ask a question. Why, well, why is that important to you? Why do you want that? And then they give an answer. Okay.
Well, why is that important to you? And they give you that. Okay, well, why is that important to you? And then you, like, you go down almost like a five-year-old and ask, well, why, why, why, why? And then it usually comes down to some kind of like actual feeling that you were getting out of it. So it could be for some people, a sense of validation a sense of like, getting a feeling like you're getting respected, feeling like you're, you know, some, something like that is really a safety security, like at the surface wise to get a raise, it might just be because you really want a sense of security and, and sense of self, or it could be a sense of validation because you're proving to your parents who were never supportive, that you could like, whatever that underlying, as soon as you identify that, for some people, it means, Oh, well, that's what I'm really [00:24:00] seeking.
Then this goal, that's not the only way I can potentially achieve that same thing that I'm seeking. So sometimes they're pursuing the wrong goal to get that feeling. That that's what they're actually looking for.
Brandon: [00:24:13] Yeah. That's really powerful. That's, that's totally fascinating. And, and I've experienced exactly that so many times in my life that like going after something for that to give me a feeling or to satisfy that itch, but it wasn't the right thing to chase. Actually, I could accomplish the same scratching, to use the metaphor, through some other, other pursuit. In hypnosis one of my, my hypnosis teachers talked about quitting smoking as a, as a treatment option for, for the smokers.
And he had this great technique where he would say, okay, on our first session, First of all, they have to pay like 1500 bucks to show that they're invested and really care about quitting. And it's one session. That's all he would do. This is for our first session, [00:25:00] you got to write down a list of the reasons why you want to quit, make a list, make it exhaustive.
So anything you think of make, put it down on paper and they will go in and bring them the list. And he, this is a great, powerful move. He would take the list, not even open it and not read it folded in half and rip it in front of them. And then he give him a new piece of paper and a pen and say, now go write the real reasons why you want to quit smoking and like symbolically to that person.
They're like, Oh yeah, I got to go another layer here. So even if they were writing the things that matter to them right now, it's like that force into the root why like you say, to get them to connect to that deeper motivation. So cool. Gosh, this is really, I've got like ideas for my own personal growth.
Heather: [00:25:46] Well, but maybe I should start hypnosis, but that's, it's interesting that this very same approach.
Brandon: [00:25:51] Yeah, yeah, totally, totally right on par. Well, I, I could chat forever about goal setting and, and how to help people [00:26:00] unleash their potential and reach new possibilities. But we don't have all the work all the time in the world on this podcast.
So let me get to the final question. I want to ask you Heather. As the podcast is called the Real Secrets of Magic I'm really interested in learning - we talked a bit about practice and, you know, putting in that daily work on stuff that, that leads to outcomes, which. Which are maybe disproportionate to what the work on a daily basis looks like, or maybe aren't expected.
So I've been asking my guests, what would you say is like a, a secret practice that you do on a regular basis daily or weekly that you think has really contributed to your success athletically as a speaker author coach that you might maybe other people wouldn't know about right away, or maybe it doesn't seem like it's as powerful a technique as it really has been for you. Multiple answers invited.
Heather: [00:26:55] Oh my gosh. It's hard because I mean, for a large chunk of my life it was [00:27:00] training and competing was that was my life. And now it's shifted because of, you know, speaking full-time and coaching and doing that stuff. So it's very, very different.
So I don't - like when I was training I would probably say that I knew myself well enough to know that I had to train in the morning before I got open to email before I did any of that stuff. Because if I did it in the afternoon, my brain, like I'm, it's just the laziness. It's the too tired.
I'm settled. I'm kind of at the drop end of the day. And I knew I wouldn't get there. Like I knew. So for me, it was in the morning, in the morning, in the morning. But now for, for speaking and for, I don't. I think that I'm just a big, I'm a sleeper. Like I respect my sleep a lot. I don't know that I'd necessarily do anything to help me get a good sleep.
And, but I mean, I [00:28:00] know that when I was training, I needed nine and a half hours of sleep a night. Like that's generally what I would get. Sometimes 10, if I was exhausted, if I was really rested, I might only need nine, but when I was training, that's what my body needed. And now, now that I'm not training it's probably still between the eight and nine hour mark that I know that I need.
If I don't get it, I know I'm going to function okay the next day. But in terms of the repeated, like after a few days of getting, you know, only six hours, not good. So I'm a huge believer in that, in the power of sleep for not only just clarity of mind, but also for how our bodies physically function. I think that that whole, that whole thing plays a, plays a tool. And I'm just regardless of goals, I think that. I think we just it's, this isn't really a practice per se, but when I am pursuing goals, it is, I think that gratitude is a really big [00:29:00] piece. Even if it's just as simple as, you know, for some people with religious backgrounds, it's saying grace before meals or being thankful for whatever. And not even religious, I guess just being thankful for what's in front of you. Some people have adopted like that early morning gratitude practice. Or right before bed gratitude practice. And to be honest, it's flip-flopped for me sometimes in the morning, sometimes evening, sometimes it's both, but I really truly believe that my whole business is about perspective and about, you know, Helping people shift perspective.
And I think there's no better way to shift one's perspective than to be reminded about the things that we can be grateful for. Regardless of what's going on around us, whether it's COVID, whether it's quarantine, whether it's, you know, family stress, whether it's, you know, internal stress. I think that gratitude is the one thing for me that's helped just remind me of whatever's going on. Good or bad. I think when really great things are happening in my life, gratitude [00:30:00] food at least keeps me humble and keeps things on a level playing field and kind of puts things in perspective for me so that I don't become too big for my britches as my mother would say.
But also when things are going really poorly just to be reminded. Even saying the word poorly, that there's perspective in that, like that there's in the grand scheme of things, it's actually not so poor. So that's been a huge blessing for me.
Brandon: [00:30:25] Sage advice from a legend.. And subtle. It's a great practice though, being able to, and when you do it on a regular basis, you have, you have the ability to access it when you need it too.
Like you can feel the weight of the world and capture -
Heather: [00:30:42] Like I do it with my clients too. And some of them have never practiced gratitude before. Not consciously. When you bring that intentionality to it, it is also practice in. Shifting. And then when we move on to the next kind of next phase of it, it's okay. We're going to talk about [00:31:00] game changers.
Like when something really bad happens, pick think of a bad scenario and now think of all the positives that are happening because of that bad scenario. So it kind of builds up your. I guess that champion mindset, the resiliency, the positivity, the solution focused stuff, and it kind of helps people develop that champion mindset, whether they want to use that champion mindset in sports, whether they want to use that in business, whether they just are, want to use it in life.
If they're dealing with, you know, a recent diagnosis or a dispute with the family member or whatever, like it's developing that mindset of a champion it's, I mean, we use that term loosely, but that champion mindset it's really about resiliency and, and perspective.
Brandon: [00:31:41] I got goosebumps, Heather, it's always such a pleasure when we get to connect and, you know, I love, I love hearing your insights on, on making magic and creating possibilities.
Always. We could talk forever, but we're all out of time for today. So I want to say [00:32:00] again, thank you so much for making time to be on the show. I know our listeners got so much value out of this conversation, and I wish you all sorts of luck as you continue down the journey of leaning into your challenges.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
What a fantastic conversation with heather Moyse. All sorts of insights about goal setting and shifting perspectives If you know somebody in your life who could use a little bit of insight feel free to share their episode with them You can also learn more about creating new possibilities by following me at brandon love magic on instagram or on facebook And i hope you'll tune in next week for the next episode of the real secrets of magic.